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If we restricted everything based on "might do this or that" then we would ALL be living in a cell.
"Based on Code457938y45, and your recent comment overheard by your disgruntled neighbor about disliking your boss, you are deemed a high risk individual at your job and in the rest of society for that matter, based on scientific probabilities. You hereby must take a year of counseling and in no way ever say the word 'gun' and 'office' in the same sentence."
Where would it end?
Get real here. No one is perfect, thus no system designed by any human is perfect. Common sense went out the window decades ago, but really. Prosecute the rare cases of firearms in crimes, and continue to. Regulating things more will make the system/people more responsible and better? Hardly. The only thing further regulations would do is lead to more regulations because crime will never disappear.
To think people will never commit crime is, again, a dreamland. Id love that to be the case, but reality is much differant than this far fetched fantasy of everything being beautiful and perfect. Bummer.
American liberals, leftists, social progressives, socialists, Marxists and Obama supporters, et al:
We have stuck together since the late 1950's, but the whole of this latest election process has made me realize that I want a divorce. I know we tolerated each other for many years for the sake of future generations, but sadly, this relationship has run its course.
Our two ideological sides of America cannot and will not ever agree on what is right so let's just end it on friendly terms. We can smile and chalk it up to irreconcilable differences and go our own way.
Here is a model separation agreement:
Our two groups can equitably divide up the country by landmass each taking a portion. That will be the difficult part, but I am sure our two sides can come to a friendly agreement. After that, it should be relatively easy! Our respective representatives can effortlessly divide other assets since both sides have such distinct and disparate tastes.
We don't like redistributive taxes so you can keep them. You are welcome to the liberal judges and the ACLU. Since you hate guns and war, we'll take our firearms, the cops, the NRA and the military.
You can keep Oprah, Michael Moore and Rosie O'Donnell(You are, however, responsible for finding a bio-diesel vehicle big enough to move all three of them).
We'll keep the capitalism, greedy corporations, pharmaceutical companies, Wal-Mart and Wall Street. You can have your beloved homeless, homeboys, hippies and illegal aliens. We'll keep the hot Alaskan hockey moms, greedy CEO's and rednecks. We'll keep the Bibles and give you NBC and Hollywood ..
You can make nice with Iran and Palestine and we'll retain the right to invade and hammer places that threaten us.. You can have the peaceniks and war protesters. When our allies or our way of life are under assault, we'll help provide them security.
We'll keep our Judeo-Christian values.. You are welcome to Islam, Scientology, Humanism and Shirley McClain. You can also have the U.N.. but we will no longer be paying the bill.
We'll keep the SUVs, pickup trucks and oversized luxury cars. You can take every Subaru station wagon you can find.
You can give everyone healthcare if you can find any practicing doctors. We'll continue to believe healthcare is a luxury and not a right. We'll keep The Battle Hymn of the Republic and the National Anthem. I'm sure you'll be happy to substitute Imagine, I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing, Kum Ba Ya or We Are the World.
We'll practice trickle down economics and you can give trickle up poverty your best shot. Since it often so offends you, we'll keep our history, our name and our flag.
Would you agree to this? If so, please pass it along to other like minded liberal and conservative patriots and if you do not agree, just hit delete. In the spirit of friendly parting, I'll bet you Answer which one of us will need whose help in 15 years.
Sincerely,
John J. Wall
Law Student and an American
P.S. Also, please take Ted Turner, Sean Penn, Martin Sheehan, Barbara Streisand, & Jane Fonda with you.
P. S. S. And we won't have to press 1 for English.
I'd like to address the focus on extreme situations here. Mentally unfit people going on shooting sprees is not, and shouldn't be, the focus of this discussion, it's not the main problem with guns in the US. The problem, as I see it, is the gun mentality and perception in America, which compounds the issue in much more subtle ways than just being about massacres. If every single person in America owned guns, massacres would still happen via tools that render guns obsolete (like bombs). The Ft. Hood tragedy proves that the psychological deterrent of gun presence is not enough to keep people from committing atrocities. Even if guns were locked away in that particular case, logic would say no one is stupid enough to go on a rampage in an Army base, but it still happened. I don't buy for a second that if every single citizen had a gun, people would stop doing nasty things to each other in America. I think the situation would become worse.
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Their perception of guns is pure, and adheres greatly to the values espoused by AOD and others in this thread, and they are honorable values indeed. On a fundamental level, I agree with you guys and the constitutional right to own guns wholeheartedly.
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I firmly believe that the average American, upon possessing a gun, will experience a shift in their self-perception and their relationship to others that will lean towards the negative and the antisocial, even with the beneficial aspects of confidence about self-defense.
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In the meantime, go ahead, exercise your freedom and get a gun. I just wouldn't necessarily recommend it, cause it might turn you into an asshole.
nice post.
i'd like to compliment you on having the ability to fear government control not really want to criminalize gun ownership, yet be able to criticize it. much respect.
i criticize all sorts of things, that i think are wrong, immoral or stupid, but i dont support criminalization of things like drug use, alcohol use, etc.
i'd like to point out, that i do not for one second think that a utopia would be achievable in the US and no crime would exist if people armed themselves. we do not live in the garden of eden. people will always kill people. glossing over the fact that trained soldiers at fort hood that are disarmed not being able to stand up to a mad gun man, is a cop out. seriously. soldiers were not armed.
when pro gunners make statements like..'you dont see mass murder at army bases or police stations...' its more of general statement. its not a literal statement. few things NEVER happen. there are exceptions to everything. as i said, we are NOT in the garden of eden. even if soldiers were armed at fort hood, you will still get a crazy guy on rare occasions doing this sort of crap. but its safe to say more mass killings happen with known disarmed victims than with known armed victims. more crime takes place in areas where a means of self defense is illegal than in states where it is respected.
one of the main points you are making, i have to take issue with. it think it might be safe to say some 'gang banger graff hipster types' might get a big head if they own a gun. but im uncomfortable in saying that the average american will get a big head if they own a gun. the lawful gun owning crowd are made up of the most decent people i have associated with. i feel i am either the sole reason for or a contributor to the reasons why atleast 5 people i personally know and are close to have bought weapons. i am responsible 100% for atleast 1 person getting a concealed carry license in a very non gun friendly state. these people experienced no ego trips, no inflated heads and if anything mellowed out and became less of the wild people they once were.
but you are right, america doesnt have the gun culture it once had. much to america's loss. rural america still has a gun culture, but most of america's citizens live in huge cities that have just about forbidden gun ownership.
i dont have answers. i do know that giving people a means to defend themselves is the only means available right now. crime free utopia will never exist. it never has and never will. an armed populace almost always reduce crime, but never gets rid of it 100%. the only thing i know is best is to at least give people the liberty to have a means to attempt to defend themselves. it could mean a lot. we'll never know that if the peoples in europe who suffered under nazism and communism for all those years... if they were armed like the swiss, if they would of been able to fend off their masters and live in freedom. but i damn sure do not support the policies of the dictators in disarming citizens. the citizens are the ones that are supposed to have the power, not the other way around.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."
You guys write to much to address a point. Keep it simple.
Gun owners own guns to make them less scared. It's empowering. Fear is what keeps everyone in line. It's shitty but it's working - as a control mechanism.
My postulate is that if you gave everybody a gun, and taught them to respect its power, you would see less crime and people would generally be happier. People need a way to protect themselves.
On the other hand maybe we'll all kill ourselves and each other. But didn't we all used to own swords?... same thing. Personal protection.
Every tyrannical government in existence used scare tactics and robbed their civilians of their weapons. It's how you suppress an entire group of people, give them no way to stand up for themselves. ie. slaves couldn't own guns... use your imagination as to why that rule existed.
Now it is 1984
Knock-knock at your front door
It's the suede/denim secret police
They have come for your uncool niece
i'd like to point out, that i do not for one second think that a utopia would be achievable in the US and no crime would exist if people armed themselves. we do not live in the garden of eden. people will always kill people.
i dont have answers. i do know that giving people a means to defend themselves is the only means available right now. crime free utopia will never exist. it never has and never will. an armed populace almost always reduce crime, but never gets rid of it 100%. the only thing i know is best is to at least give people the liberty to have a means to attempt to defend themselves. it could mean a lot. we'll never know that if the peoples in europe who suffered under nazism and communism for all those years... if they were armed like the swiss, if they would of been able to fend off their masters and live in freedom. but i damn sure do not support the policies of the dictators in disarming citizens. the citizens are the ones that are supposed to have the power, not the other way around.
nice. and this is the idealogy that will prevail in the new world. old ideas die hard, but they die with their creators. there is hope for us.
and my post above this one isn't saying that Utopia could be achieved 100% either, but you're right we can get damned close. guns are a symbol of power. and we all need to be empowered as a society, and stop obeying our masters.
Now it is 1984
Knock-knock at your front door
It's the suede/denim secret police
They have come for your uncool niece
It is the choice that is given. It is your right to own a firearm. It is not within the governments ability to limit that choice. It is unconstitutional.
The argument is much like the one with drugs. People tend to think that once something that was illegal becomes legal, everyone is going to jump on board. The nation will give in to wide spread addicts.
This is not the case. It is an argument based off a fallacy. Because it is based off of the idea that people can not make proper decisions. If this is the case than the same people put in authority to use these weapons are also as incompetent, and how will they make the right choice in when to use or not use their weapon, and if it is used in the improper manner, how will you deal with this?
I will not sit here and pretend that every single person born is born with the responsibility and maturity it takes in handling a fire arm. I however refuse to believe that banning that choice for everyone is the proper way in dealing with that issue.
Education like I always say is the key. If a single person can be educated in behaving properly with a firearm, in public and private use. Most people should be capable of doing the same thing
Now how American culture contributes or takes away from any of this is another discussion, because that bleeds into many other area's besides gun control.
"They must find it difficult...Those who have taken the authority as the truth, rather than the truth as the authority." ~ Gerald Massey.
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the need for thought." ~ Jules Henri Poincaré
Guns in the WRONG Hands
Posted by William Grigg on November 12, 2009 11:43 AM
New Rochelle, New York resident James Pileggi was sitting in his parked car with a friend on the evening of November 3 when he decided to show off his new toy — a 9mm equipped with a laser sight. Unfortunately, the gun went off, and another of Pileggi’s friends, 27-year-old Andre Everett, was struck in the throat. Everett died at a nearby hospital about 45 minutes later.
Pileggi has been arraigned on a charge of second-degree manslaughter. He is still drawing a paycheck as a member of the Eastchester, New York Police Force: After he inadvertently killed his friend through culpable incompetence with a firearm, Pileggi was put on “administrative leave,” which is essentially a paid vacation.
It’s worth remembering that, as a police officer, Pileggi was among the “Only Ones” — the exalted beings commissioned by the divine State to carry firearms, presumably because of their bottomless benevolence and unfailing competence.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."
My postulate is that if you gave everybody a gun, and taught them to respect its power, you would see less crime and people would generally be happier. People need a way to protect themselves.
My postulate is that if you gave everybody a gun, people would be more wary and distrustful of each other and therefore we would be unhappier. Even if I have the means to kill you, the fact that you can so easily kill me before I am able to defend myself (and vice versa) will create negative pressure in the way we associate with each other. This is sometimes referred to as "politeness", but it's a respect charged with antagonistic tension. Happiness will not come forth from that.
On the other hand maybe we'll all kill ourselves and each other. But didn't we all used to own swords?... same thing. Personal protection.
Swords don't allow the level of disconnect and distance that guns do. It's relatively simple to defend yourself against a sword attack, since the attacker makes himself vulnerable by proximity. When it becomes too easy and risk-free for people to kill each other (as it begins to happen with guns), you're gonna see a prevalence towards it being used more often than a sword would be.
Now how American culture contributes or takes away from any of this is another discussion, because that bleeds into many other area's besides gun control.
Even if it does bleed to other areas, it doesn't make it any less central to the issue. It's the main thing that needs to be addressed and solved if you wish to eliminate the hostility towards guns that leads to restrictive legislation.
Education like I always say is the key. If a single person can be educated in behaving properly with a firearm, in public and private use. Most people should be capable of doing the same thing
Now how American culture contributes or takes away from any of this is another discussion, because that bleeds into many other area's besides gun control.
That's why things like addiction and teenage pregnancy/STDs are so prevalent. Education currently takes the stance of "Don't do this at all or you're morally corrupt" on these matters, which anyone who went through adolescence will tell you is exactly the wrong message to send.
There should be education that informs kids of the risks and consequences of their actions without judgment. Some kids deliberately do things that they have been told not to do because they want to feel like they're getting away with something...whether it's sex, drugs, or being in a gang and packing a gun.
Unfortunately, education still relies on the "Scarlet Letter"/carrot and stick principle in an attempt to get kids to toe the line, and it's not working.
yes I have, it was fun although highly dangerous as was young and irresponsible (was when I was a teenager, we 'borrowed' a sawn off shotgun from a friends dad)
I would love to go to a shooting range and give a variety of weapons a go, I am not against guns per se, I tend to subscribe to Mams viewpoint that he made a hell of a lot better than I have been able to.
We really didn't mean to 'do a Nietzsche' as it were, and kill God, but then again, God's been dead for over three hours now, and things still seem to be going on pretty much as usual in the universe.
Go to the main site www.12ozprophet.com - Click ads - show support for the Oontz
ive only been to england a few times, and there always seemed to be alot of shooting/guns magazines at book stores. Are there alot of shooters/ranges to shoot at? Are citizens able to go rent-and-shoot or anything?
They aren't in every town or anything like that but there are avid shooters here, it is look upon as more of a sport or pasttime.
I think people can go and rent and shoot, to be honest I have not looked into it as money is always needed for other things, there was a gun shop not far from where I grew up.
actually just did a quick search and yea there are clubs that you can rent, not public ranges but places you join http://www.fordranges.co.uk/
We really didn't mean to 'do a Nietzsche' as it were, and kill God, but then again, God's been dead for over three hours now, and things still seem to be going on pretty much as usual in the universe.
Go to the main site www.12ozprophet.com - Click ads - show support for the Oontz
from what i understand... if i am remembering right...you are only allowed to 'own' a 'sporting' gun such as a shotgun and they must be kept locked at the govt approved sporting club.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."
I'm not 100% sure, I know you can't buy things like you can in the U.S. I just tried having a look and unsurprisingly enough it was very hard to find. I did find some information on gun ownership, it didn't mention anything about storing weapons at home, I seem to remember (if memory serves me right) that you can with license/forms whatever you need you can have shotguns at home in a locked secure place, but that may be different now, i'm not sure.
We really didn't mean to 'do a Nietzsche' as it were, and kill God, but then again, God's been dead for over three hours now, and things still seem to be going on pretty much as usual in the universe.
Go to the main site www.12ozprophet.com - Click ads - show support for the Oontz
speaking off the top of my head, not in any way certain but I'm pretty sure Britons are fairly unregulated when it comes to 'long guns'. So called 'assault rifles' were squished under a 'capacity' clause but we had shotguns galore when I was in Ireland. I think it's pretty much hand guns and high capacity rifles that are looked at hard... keep in mind it was '89 when I was over there shooting and the IRA was still a very real thing, but yeah... there's actually a few provisions in UK law that exempts handguns so, even though they claim to be "free" there's actually a bunch running around, and from what I've heard since, it's like a heyday with the automatics coming across the channel along w/ the drug trade. England is the current home of unregulated gun trade, just like how America is with the dope.
*I mean besides Mexico, or for that matter, South America... and Africa, and the Middle East, and the East... but apart from them it's all England.
^^^ i think the 'sporting guns' law i was talking about was passed in direct response to the IRA. im still pretty sure the long guns must be kept at a regulated sporting 'club.'
which is why the IRA was training in africa and places like that. then going back to ireland to raise hell.
"Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself."
That's why things like addiction and teenage pregnancy/STDs are so prevalent. Education currently takes the stance of "Don't do this at all or you're morally corrupt" on these matters, which anyone who went through adolescence will tell you is exactly the wrong message to send.
There should be education that informs kids of the risks and consequences of their actions without judgment. Some kids deliberately do things that they have been told not to do because they want to feel like they're getting away with something...whether it's sex, drugs, or being in a gang and packing a gun.
Unfortunately, education still relies on the "Scarlet Letter"/carrot and stick principle in an attempt to get kids to toe the line, and it's not working.
This is extremely relevant. Instead of properly teaching children or even adults for that matter how to use a gun, and how to be safe around weapons. It is simply put off limits.
Now I know this is a graffiti forum so I am going to assume most of you have similar traits to me. For a very long time something being off limits was basically an invitation for me to get involved. It didn't happen with me with weapons, but in other area's that you have mentioned.
The TRUTH has to be taught. Living in a politically correct society doesn't work. Guns exist. People are going to be into situations where they are around, and if they don't know how to properly behave, accidents will happen. Or even horrible decisions that lead to the loss of life, destruction of property etc and etc..
I also agree that our culture here in America is a big problem. I'll even attribute that to my favorite music/culture for the last 10 years of my life. Hip Hop. I believe that everyone should be held accountable for their own actions, however you can't deny the affect a message can have when you hear it constantly.
Kill people, sell drugs, pimp women, repeat. It sells a life of irresponsibility.
Not to mention the constant violence you see on TV and the movies. Not even just fictional stuff.
Like I said though that contribute to A LOT of things. Teen pregnancy, drug use, violence, education.
Unfortunately for a lot of people they don't figure it out till it is too late.
"They must find it difficult...Those who have taken the authority as the truth, rather than the truth as the authority." ~ Gerald Massey.
"To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the need for thought." ~ Jules Henri Poincaré
^^^ Jesus Christ that is just crazy, that jury must have been filled with idiots, surely there is no problem with him handling it to hand it in, especially considering he was a soldier (or was) and would know how to handle guns. Sometimes the law is ridiculous, I would have let him off and fined the police for wasting court time if I were the judge.
We really didn't mean to 'do a Nietzsche' as it were, and kill God, but then again, God's been dead for over three hours now, and things still seem to be going on pretty much as usual in the universe.
Go to the main site www.12ozprophet.com - Click ads - show support for the Oontz
Re: For you anti-gun folk -
11-12-2009, 01:29 AM
