[angelofdeath]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

As for the open permit, well ok if anyone can wander around in those states just carrying a gun then that, to me, just seems crazy. Like I have said before, there are lots of responsible gun owners, but also lots of very irresponsible gun owners, to think that they can walk around unquestioned in a public space carrying a gun is madness. OK there are individual rights, what about the rights of everyone to feel secure without people openly carrying guns, there is a flip side to every arguement. My reasoning behind the police questioning people was because it is the police's job to protect the public, if someone is wandering around with a gun that person may be a threat to the public, and in my eyes should be questioned on the legality of the gun. I'm sure that in those states with open permits that there are still rules to people not having certain guns or some kind of safety barrier. This is also my view on government, they do stand for the individual but also need to stand for society in general.

there is no right to feel secure. no such critter. what if a black person is intimidated by the mere fact a white person lives next door? tough shit.
getting into technicalities... the issue is really carrying a gun on public property. if you are 1000 feet of a school... illegal. no guns allowed due to clintons' school gun ban. no guns in post offices. no guns allowed on private property, such as stores that have 'no gun' signs. most states restrict guns on property that serves alcohol.

if a person has a right to protest on public property a person should have a right to carry on public property as it is essentially the same right. gun ownership just like protest is not a crime. this all gets cloudy because of the public property. which is actually common ownership by all taxpayers with everyones ability to use such property but it is controlled by the government. so when you have a situation like this, with all the diverse people in america you are going to have disagreements about what can and cannot be done on said property. in the angelofdeath free society, property owners would decide whether firearms are allowed or not. of course in the shopping mall that forbids firearms, this is where all the robberies and murders would happen.

it is interesting to note that in places like schools and post offices... well. no need to mention what happens in those places, but what the hell. people going postal and mass murders of school children without proper armed guardians on the property.

A slave is not someone who doesn't have a gun, that is rubbish, I am not a slave and I do not own a gun. You use some far out examples, like the rape scenario, well to be honest in the UK if someoen breaks into your house there is a very very large chance they will NOT have a gun, I could defend myself suitably with a number of things I have to hand. If I lived in the US I would have to have a gun because so many criminals have easy access to them that the most petty of crimes now involve firearms, such as muggings or burglary.

i guess where you and i differ is that i would just like to use the best tool available for the job at hand. if i have to go about defending myself, i'd rather it be with a handgun that starts with a 4, than my bare hands. im not well trained in hand to hand combat. and definitely would not feel safe playing steven seagal on someone with a gun pointed at me. i also like to use a chain saw when cutting wood instead of a hand saw or ax and i like to use air tools when working on cars instead of hand tools. why mess around? sure, i could try to grapple with the guy at 3 am in my house stealing my shit and trying to shoot at me, but i'd rather try to have the upper hand when im threatened. there is no such thing as a fair fight when fighting in defense. you do anything to stay alive.

To say I don't believe a person is capable of defending themselves or their property is stupid, I have said before that I know the gun situation in america is what it is and I would own one in the US, I am just saying that the proliferation of guns in society is more a negative than a positive

but you are all for denying someone the basic human right of owning an inanimate object because you are scared of people with guns. i guess i see the big picture.
where guns can be used to defend your lives liberty and property knowing full well that the guns i own and that the guns everyone i know owns, will only be put to that use and not for any other aggressive purpose.

[Decyferon]

I agree you do anything to survive when defending yourself, I just prefere to defend myself against people when they don't have guns, obviously because you live in the US and have grown up around guns you are used to using that as your defense because the criminals also have guns, I DO SEE the american point of view.

I however live somewhere without guns, I have never encountered a criminal with a gun or been threatened with one, I have never known anyone to have been burgaled by someone with a gun nor mugged with a gun. Guns are not needed, but you need them in AMerica because there are just so many of them and easy access to them.

I understand having a rifle or handgun, I do think that what the american government should be doing is taking away AK47s and those sort of guns and focussing on getting those off the streets and out of the hands of criminals, then normal citizens.

[angelofdeath]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

I agree you do anything to survive when defending yourself, I just prefere to defend myself against people when they don't have guns, obviously because you live in the US and have grown up around guns you are used to using that as your defense because the criminals also have guns, I DO SEE the american point of view.

I however live somewhere without guns, I have never encountered a criminal with a gun or been threatened with one, I have never known anyone to have been burgaled by someone with a gun nor mugged with a gun. Guns are not needed, but you need them in AMerica because there are just so many of them and easy access to them.

I understand having a rifle or handgun, I do think that what the american government should be doing is taking away AK47s and those sort of guns and focussing on getting those off the streets and out of the hands of criminals, then normal citizens.

its sort of silly to sit back in the arm chair and pick and choose who you will be defending yourself against when this is out of your control. the firearm is the great equalizer. the old lady can use this thing to shoot the guy trying to kill and rob her with a knife. the gun is the best tool for the job, no matter if you are facing another gun, a rapist with a knife or a gang of hammer skins. usually the mere sight of a firearm will diffuse the situation.

i have never personally encountered a criminal with a gun or been threatened by one.
its one thing to say guns are not needed in situation X but its an entirely different situation to say guns are not needed in situation X and you are forbidden from owning one and we'll decide what is best for you.

your concern of AK's which are used in very little, if any meaningful percentage of crimes, is a common one. all the gun control measures are aimed at exactly that... keeping evil ak's out of the hands of evil people. but for some reason the bad people still have the firearms. the gun control measures only disarm the people who are already law abiding. if someone is going to use a gun to commit a crime like murder, breaking a gun control law is nothing.

[Decyferon]

this is why any gun controls measures I talk about focus on disarming the criminal population before the civilian. I believe the common man deserves precident over the criminal and I would never disarm them before taking that shit off the streets

[MoonsOfSulkendastron]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

I understand having a rifle or handgun, I do think that what the american government should be doing is taking away AK47s and those sort of guns and focussing on getting those off the streets and out of the hands of criminals, then normal citizens.

the percentage of crimes involving firearms of the assault nature (ak47s, sks, ar15s, augs, what have you) are pretty low man. Handguns (and shotguns)are definitely the most prevalent when it comes to committing crimes with a gun involved...and notice most are stolen?

Again, the people who want to commit crimes with a firearm are going to get one. Making the availability of guns a lower number will do nothing to stop firearm related crime. Think its a culture thing bra...

[MoonsOfSulkendastron]

SCRATCH THAT LAST POST

uhh...how would one disarm ONLY the criminal population?

That would be sweet. But so would world peace. Thats livin in an unrealistic fantasyland bro

[angelofdeath]

"how would one disarm ONLY the criminal population?"

that is the question.
if the gov cant keep drugs out of max security prisons, there is no way in hell to disarm only criminals. i think a lot of the gun control crowd's argument centers around a world in which there is no guns, which therefore would lead them to conclude that if the criminals dont have guns (leaving the GOVERNMENT criminals out of this at present) law abiding citizens shouldnt have them either. only problem is... getting them out of the hands of the criminals. impossible. better chance at seeing winged swine.

[Decyferon]

I know it is an impossibility, don't worry I'm not living in a dream world!!

It is just a hard thing to tackle, maybe they should punish criminals who use guns a lot harsher, then you have the problem of an already over populated prison system.

I definitely think that if the government wants a war on something as they always seem to, they should focus on getting illegal guns out the hands of criminals, but they won't because they know it is a hopeless task and not worth putting their political reputation on the line, but it idoesn't mean someone should at least try and fight back against the number of criminals using guns.

[MoonsOfSulkendastron]

word, it would be real cool if criminals didnt have access to guns, but thefts of guns will always occur, and they will always be able to acquire one if they really wanted it.

Perhaps instead of focusing on getting rid of the tools the criminals use, maybe the government should wage a war on the circumstances that cause the psychological factors that would prompt someone to get involved in criminal activity in the first place....wage war on the root of the problem these people have..

[lord_casek]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

I know it is an impossibility, don't worry I'm not living in a dream world!!

It is just a hard thing to tackle, maybe they should punish criminals who use guns a lot harsher, then you have the problem of an already over populated prison system.

I definitely think that if the government wants a war on something as they always seem to, they should focus on getting illegal guns out the hands of criminals, but they won't because they know it is a hopeless task and not worth putting their political reputation on the line, but it idoesn't mean someone should at least try and fight back against the number of criminals using guns.

Maybe it would be better for the good people to be armed? Making it hard for criminals to
know whether or not they might get their head blown off if they try some shit.

What happened during the shooting in Dallas in the 60's needs to happen again.
Read about it, Decyferon. You might be impressed with our countrymen over here.
The people defended the police and other people with their own guns allowing police
to rush the clock tower and "subdue" the shooter (by blowing his face off).

[FUCKMUNI]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

I can understand why people may want a gun, i understand that, I just think it is fucking stupid to legally be able to own guns such as AK47s and those kind of weapons, if you want to hunt have a rifle, if you want a gun at home to defend yourself have a handgun

I am very glad I live in a country where not every nutjob/junkie is able to arm themseves to the teeth

you got a liberal ass mindset and im glad people like you decide to keep your asses on the UK...where yall seem to willingly LOVE to give up your rights....you must live in a cozy as little neighborhood, but im in the east bay homie...oakland...even 16 year olds out here got heat....i keep mr AR15 loaded at all times in case some smart ass wants to get sick and try and rob my house...and i keep 30 rounders in case he wants to bring his friends...


stop tryin to control other people....im glad you stay in the UK...all these liberals faggots from SF and cali should join you....UK= where people love to be controlled and protected by their government...yall are PUSSIES...

[Decyferon]

your a fucking moron that obviously doesn't know shit, I have as many freedoms as you, try looking at your own neighbourhood, you got 16 year olds running around with guns and you think I live in the place without freedom, jesus christ, sounds to me that you live in the fucked up place not me!! I don't mind having a discussion with mature adults like AOD who can discuss something without getting offensive and acting like some little hoodrat.

I'm not trying to control anyone, I was putting the other side to the arguement, obviously hit a raw nerve with you and made you cry.

[FUCKMUNI]

hahaah yall dont have shit in the UK....they want to ban kitchen knives HAH, your government is all abuot control and restricting your rights...wake up

[Decyferon]

my god your an idiot, they aren't going to ban kitchen knives what do you do watch Fox news for your round up of what happens in the world?

[FUCKMUNI]

im not really here to get into some real technical argument i just like to bash on the liberal minded....but all i can say is that i got my AR...and you dont....so when SHTF and you are in a bad situation i sincerely wish you good luck!

[Decyferon]

because is being liberal is such a bad thing??

why do so many Americans have such a problem with a liberal approach. A liberal is about freedoms and choices. I know a lot of Americans get that confused with socialism, which they then get confused with communism, which they then get confused as being some totalitarian dictatorship.

I find it amazing sometimes, to me a liberal is pro choice, anti racism, anti homophobia anti any kind of prejudice.

In the UK a conservative is the government which fucks a country and screws over all the people for the benefit of the Richest minority.

Also, when the shit hits the fan, I will be doing just fine because I wont have a bunch of crazed teenagers running around with military grade weaponary

[FUCKMUNI]

the only freedoms liberals fight for are gay rights and illegal immigrants who shoot law abiding citizens....im from the bay we see the effects of liberal government..tell that to Tony Bologna and his kids who were shot up by a illegal immigrant gang banger who was given "freedom" because its not PC to just ship these faggots off....and now you wanna take my gun rights so that these gangbangers can rob my family and threaten my life? HAHA...i took the AQT and im accurate with my AR out to 400 yards....it would be in their best interests to go rob someone unarmed...

[FUCKMUNI]

maintain natural point of aim....take note of distance to target, windage....let the rifle relax in your support hand and do not grip it....maintain steady breathing and pay attention to the sway of your iron sights with your breathing...round chambered, safety off...take a breath and gently sqeeze the trigger as your exhale...make sure to keep your finger movement at a minimum, even your bodys heart beat can affect where the round will go...check your shot and adjust your sights/aim accordingly......shooting a rifle is a beautiful art maybe you should try it...then you will understand why some of us want to own ARs and Ak47s...

[Decyferon]

But the whole gun control arguement (although I have said it before America is too far down the road now to do anything about) if you had controlled guns a little tighter than you have then you wouldnt have these gangbangers having such ready access to guns with which they then kill people that don't deserve it. I don't have a problem with sensible gun ownership.

In the UK, if someone commited a crime like the one you mentioned they would serve a prison sentance then be deported back to where they came from. The only immigrants that get to stay in the country is if they are claiming political asylum because they would be killed for their beliefs in their home country. Obviously some slip through the net, but that guy you mentioned should have been shipped back to where he came from.

The problem lies in that guns are so easily available that it is no hassles for the criminals to get hold of them, I have said it so many times but it isn't like that here, if someone breaks into my house they WILL NOT have a gun, I can easily just smash them round the head with a baseball bat and be done with it. If there were stricter regualtions then it would be harder for the criminals to get hold of the guns, personally I think they should toughen up the sentances for illegally owned guns, if you use a gun for a crime, then automatically that should mean you get 20 years inside or more, the punishments just don't fit the crimes, three is no deterant for these gangbangers and criminals with guns.

[FUCKMUNI]

i might be missin a step lol its been a while....

[FUCKMUNI]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

But the whole gun control arguement (although I have said it before America is too far down the road now to do anything about) if you had controlled guns a little tighter than you have then you wouldnt have these gangbangers having such ready access to guns with which they then kill people that don't deserve it. I don't have a problem with sensible gun ownership.

In the UK, if someone commited a crime like the one you mentioned they would serve a prison sentance then be deported back to where they came from. The only immigrants that get to stay in the country is if they are claiming political asylum because they would be killed for their beliefs in their home country. Obviously some slip through the net, but that guy you mentioned should have been shipped back to where he came from.

The problem lies in that guns are so easily available that it is no hassles for the criminals to get hold of them, I have said it so many times but it isn't like that here, if someone breaks into my house they WILL NOT have a gun, I can easily just smash them round the head with a baseball bat and be done with it. If there were stricter regualtions then it would be harder for the criminals to get hold of the guns, personally I think they should toughen up the sentances for illegally owned guns, if you use a gun for a crime, then automatically that should mean you get 20 years inside or more, the punishments just don't fit the crimes, three is no deterant for these gangbangers and criminals with guns.

alright you got some points....it is waaay to easy to people to get illegal guns because of straw purchases and the availability of legal weapons....but i still think criminals will get weapons....if they shut down local gun shows i know the next big thing wuold be to have weapons shipped from china in parts and then assembled here by the triads i already know that happens...same thing from africa or middle east....the only thing wuold be the price would go up....like AOD said its IMPOSSIBLE to keep guns out of criminals hands..

btw are you anglo brit? immigrant brit? curious how you think the UK has more freedoms than the US unless you moved to the UK frmo somewhere like Islamabad.

[Decyferon]

lol I am born in the UK, but I have never felt like I have had any freedoms taken away, the only difference between you and I is that I can't legally own a gun (although I probably could because there are legal guns here but I have no need for one) but I can go to the doctors or hospital whenever I want with no fear of bills or having no insurance, so it is swings and roundabouts really.

I didn't say I have more freedoms than the US, I said I am just as free as you.

It's like me saying to you did you live in the UK and move to th eUS which makes you feel you have more freedoms than someone here.

[FUCKMUNI]

it aint even that hard to make guns either...people in afghanistan make AKs out of stone molds in mountain huts you dont need a factory...making legal guns illegal would create a huge black market for those who know how to make homemade weapons...there will always be a need for guns it will NEVER go away..we dont live in utopia this is real life

the only way to solve gun crime is for the entire populace to be armed, even grannies. then when some fuck decides to rob a store or someone he is gonna have to worry about having a gun pulled in HIS face....like you said we are too far ahead from a gun free society theres no going back

[Decyferon]

Oh I agree we don't live in a utopia, I have always said there is nothing to be done about the gun situation in America.
But something needs to be done about the people that abuse gun ownership and aren't resposible and personally they should be hit with the full extent of the law

[angelofdeath]

Originally Posted by Decyferon (View Original Post)

The problem lies in that guns are so easily available that it is no hassles for the criminals to get hold of them, I have said it so many times but it isn't like that here, if someone breaks into my house they WILL NOT have a gun, I can easily just smash them round the head with a baseball bat and be done with it. If there were stricter regualtions then it would be harder for the criminals to get hold of the guns, personally I think they should toughen up the sentances for illegally owned guns, if you use a gun for a crime, then automatically that should mean you get 20 years inside or more, the punishments just don't fit the crimes, three is no deterant for these gangbangers and criminals with guns.

look at prohibition of drugs. drugs are super controlled. you need have to be put on a government watch list to buy cold medicine! 'illegal' narcotics, cannot be kept out of maximum security prisons, there is no way to 'tighten' measures to reduce gun crime. absolute impossibility. yet despite this extreme control of 'illegal' narcotics people are still blowing up their own houses in an effort to try to make money making meth.
there are 20,000 gun laws 'tightening' just a 'little bit more to stop gun crime.' none of them have worked. but what has worked is that law abiding citizens are restricted from owning or purchasing weapons to protect their self. back when there were virtually no gun laws, we had virtually no crime. back when you could order 20mm anti material weapons through the mail with no background check, no one was killed with them. when you could have as many 'unregistered' machine guns with any amount of ammunition, virtually no one was killed. i think it is false and overly simplistic to actually try to make an argument that gun control will 1. work, 2. has worked. 3. and that just a little bit more is need to create a perfect humane peace and flower loving society.

hey, atleast the UK has partially practiced what they preached. but if they really believed that guns are horrible and can simply just be given up and the perfect society could be achieved, why dont they disarm the military as a bright shining example of peace and love? they could lead by example!

but look at your argument. a criminal wont have a gun, so you can just bash him in the head with a baseball bat. is this any less lethal? why are you so opposed to guns, yet have no calms about bashing someones dome in with a baseball bat? the 'justice' system looks at a murder/killling with a gun the same as a murder with a baseball bat. just because i may or may not have small armory, doesnt mean i am 'safe.' owning a gun doesnt really make one trained in its efficient use, nor does having a baseball bat make you trained in the combative use of a baseball bat. im all for choice. options. if someone is trying to kill me, all bets are off. i will use whatever means necessary to stop the threat. a firearm is probably the best means to do so.

i dont think there needs to be harsher penalties simply because a crime was committed with a gun, i think harsher sentences should be dealt out all around, for crimes involving a victim and all victim less crimes decriminalized. whether someone is murdered with a bic pen or with an ak-47 makes no difference at all.